TrustTalk - It's all about Trust

Our guest today is Sidney Dekker, Professor and Director of the Safety Science Innovation Lab at Griffith University in Brisbane, Australia. He explores the negative effects of a blame culture in organizations and advocates for a restorative justice approach. He explains how blaming leads to a lack of honesty and authenticity, negatively impacting organizational learning, performance, and safety. He explains that a blame culture causes individuals to hide mistakes rather than address underlying systemic issues. He emphasizes that restorative justice focuses on impacts, needs, and obligations rather than rule violations and consequences. He also touches on the concept of human error, arguing that it should be seen as a consequence of deeper organizational troubles rather than the cause. The focus should be on understanding why people made certain decisions based on their goals and knowledge at the time, rather than blaming them for errors. Throughout the interview, Sidney provides practical examples to illustrate his points. He cites the Apollo 13 mission as an example of successful crisis management through trust in frontline operators and focusing on what is working rather than what is broken. He discusses the importance of including multiple stakeholder perspectives to learn and improve organizational practices. When addressing severe cases like a dam breaking due to government negligence, Dekker argues for a restorative approach to accountability. This involves truth-telling, repentance, and actions to repair harm and address the needs of affected individuals. He also connects his views to Kant's philosophy, suggesting that while past actions cannot be undone, the relational consequences can be addressed through restorative practices. He reflects on recent incidents of inappropriate behavior in organizations, stressing the need to address broader sociological issues rather than just individual behaviors. Trust, built on compassion and empathy, is fundamental to fostering a just and safe organizational culture. Sidney concludes by emphasizing the importance of trust in both professional and personal contexts, highlighting its role in collective success and his commitment to promoting restorative justice in organizational safety practices.

In the interview, Erik Schoppen discusses his forthcoming book "Trust Reset: A Radical New Vision on Trust" and the need for a new perspective on trust theories. He believes that traditional theories are insufficient in the face of rapid technological advancements and global changes. Erik emphasizes that his upcoming book integrates new insights from biological and artificial research, offering a comprehensive view on trust that spans from its molecular origins to complex social and digital systems. He explains that trust has evolved as a survival mechanism, starting from early neural networks in ancient organisms. This evolution has led to the development of three biological forms of trust: cognitive, affective, and behavioral attitudes, known as the CAB model. He elaborates that these attitudes play a role at various levels, from self-trust to interactions in social networks, and larger organizational structures, to system and societal trust. He highlights the need to understand trust as expanding networks that increase in complexity., describing trust as information that flows through these networks and levels, allowing for the measurement of trust attitudes in various contexts. He also introduces the concept of the circular trust loop, consisting of three transformational processes: regaining, rebuilding, and renewing trust. These processes help restore trust in individuals and societies, especially in the face of current global conflicts and uncertainties. Addressing the integration of biological aspects of trust, Schoppen acknowledges Paul Zak's research on the neurochemical oxytocin but emphasizes the need for a broader, multidimensional approach. He introduces his “integrated multilevel trust framework”, which considers trust from a molecular to a global scale, addressing challenges such as the climate crisis. He further breaks down the cognitive, affective, and behavioral responses that shape trust today. He provides examples, such as hiring decisions, to illustrate how these responses influence our interactions and decisions based on trust. Discussing the future of trust and AI, Erik raises concerns about whether AI will trust humans rather than the other way around. He explains that AI processes information much faster and more logically than humans, potentially perceiving us as untrustworthy and irrational. This shift necessitates a new field of research on trust in the context of AI.