TrustTalk - It's all about Trust

Our guest today is Roger Mayer, one of the most influential scholars in the field of trust and co-creator of a widely cited model of organizational trust. After attending Roger's presentation at the FINT Conference in Genoa, Italy, podcast host Severin de Wit sat down with him for a conversation on the evolving nature of trust and the surprising role that suspicion plays within it. The conversation begins with two striking images from Mayer’s FINT talk: HAL 9000, the eerily calm AI from the movie "2001: A Space Odyssey", and the Shoggoth, a chaotic, shapeshifting creature recently adopted as a meme in AI circles. Mayer uses these metaphors to illustrate a central dilemma: as AI systems become more powerful and autonomous, how do we trust something we don’t fully understand? Mayer introduces the concept of state-level suspicion, based on research by Bobko, Barelka, and Hirshfield. He explains that suspicion isn’t just a gut feeling; it’s a cognitive state involving uncertainty, heightened awareness, and the perception of possible harm. Far from being purely negative, suspicion may serve as a protective and even constructive force in complex organizational settings. A major focus of the episode is what Mayer calls Organizational Dissociative Identity Disorder (ODID). In this phenomenon, organizations send conflicting signals to employees, behave inconsistently, or act as if they have “multiple personalities.” Whether caused by mergers, mission drift, or rogue internal actors, ODID can undermine trust and leave employees feeling destabilized. Roger discusses how AI can further complicate this dynamic when its decision-making processes are opaque or misaligned with human expectations. Roger Mayer previously appeared on TrustTalk in our March 13, 2024 episode, where we explored the foundations of his trust model. In this follow-up conversation, we focus on the emerging tensions between trust, technology, and organizational coherence.

What happens to global trade when nations stop trusting each other? Our guest, Simon Evenett, Professor of Geopolitics and Strategy at IMD and co-chair of the World Economic Forum’s Global Future Council on Trade and Investment, offers a compelling look at how trust—or the erosion of it—is transforming the global trading system. He explains that international commerce has always depended on a degree of trust, even with rules in place. Since no rulebook is ever complete, trust and reputation step in to keep the system functioning. Evenett reflects on the shift from trade as a cooperative force to trade as a geopolitical weapon. Governments increasingly use export controls and trade restrictions to serve foreign policy and national security goals, and global institutions like the WTO are struggling to keep up. The WTO, once a cornerstone of global trade, is now weakened, especially in areas where rules on export controls are thin or unenforceable. He also examines the fallout from recent U.S. policies, particularly the “America First” agenda, which has eroded trust in the U.S. as a reliable trading partner. On the business side, Evenett notes that companies operating across borders are placing a growing premium on reliability. In today’s unpredictable world, trust has become a competitive advantage. While some global trade remains essential—such as in raw materials—many firms are beginning to favor regional supply chains where political stability and trust are stronger. Evenett believes that rebuilding global trust won't necessarily require new institutions but rather a government recommitment to stable, predictable trade policies. He sees promise in smaller coalitions of like-minded countries forming “oases of stability” in an otherwise fragmented trade landscape. His closing advice to future policymakers: spend more time understanding how businesses work. Trade policy detached from commercial realities risks is doing more harm than good.

Our guest today is Eliot Higgins, founder of Bellingcat, the groundbreaking open-source collective that has transformed investigative journalism. From uncovering the truth behind the downing of MH17 to documenting war crimes and exposing global disinformation campaigns, Bellingcat demonstrates how ordinary citizens, equipped with digital tools, can challenge the narratives of the powerful. Eliot recounts his unconventional path into investigative journalism, his motivations for launching Bellingcat, and the organization’s mission to make evidence-based inquiry accessible to all. He reflects on the fragile state of public trust, the manipulation of truth in the digital age, and the ethical tightrope walked by journalists today. This conversation dives into the challenges of verifying facts in a landscape shaped by AI, deepfakes, and engagement-driven algorithms—and offers a hopeful vision for how transparency, critical thinking, and a new generation of citizen investigators can safeguard the future of democratic discourse. A must-listen for anyone passionate about the power and purpose of investigative journalism in turbulent times.  

Today we talk with Musa al-Gharbi, sociologist and author of the book "We Have Never Been Woke", a sharp, no-nonsense look at how modern social justice talk often serves the powerful more than the people it's meant to help. Musa takes us inside the contradictions of elite spaces—like universities, corporate boardrooms, and media—where people often speak the language of progress and justice but still benefit from systems of inequality in quiet, everyday ways. He shares a revealing example from the book: in many affluent, progressive households, both partners work full-time and embrace feminist values. But maintaining that lifestyle often relies on hiring others, usually women from less privileged backgrounds, including undocumented immigrants, to handle childcare, housework, and elder care. These workers are often paid low wages and have little job security, which helps make the dual-income model financially sustainable. It raises uncomfortable questions about whose labor supports the professional success and ideals of equality in these households. We also talk about how the word woke, which began as a call within Black communities to stay alert to injustice, has been pulled into today’s culture wars. Musa explains that while the term was once embraced by progressives, it’s now often used as a political weapon. For some, woke signals awareness and moral concern; for others, it's become shorthand for elitism or overreach. He compares this shift to what happened with “political correctness” in the 1990s: both terms started with good intentions, but eventually became lightning rods in debates that often say more about power and identity than the issues themselves. The conversation turns to DEI programs (Diversity, Equity & Inclusion), which Musa says often do more for those already thriving in elite spaces than for those facing real structural barriers. Instead of leveling the playing field, these initiatives can reinforce existing hierarchies—especially when they focus more on image than impact. He also challenges the idea that people distrust institutions just because of fake news or social media. In many cases, people feel left out or ignored—not because they’ve been misled, but because the institutions don’t actually reflect their values or serve their needs. So what would it take to rebuild trust? Musa argues it’s not about using the right buzzwords—it’s about real accountability, more equal access to power, and practical policies that improve everyday lives.

Our guest today is Dana Pharant, a former professional dominatrix turned leadership coach, who shares her unique insights into the links between trust, power, and vulnerability. Drawing from her experience in the BDSM world and her work with corporate leaders, Dana explains that true leadership is not about domination, but about creating the space where people willingly place their trust in you. She emphasizes that trust is built through evidence and emotional safety, not through demands, fear, or blind faith. Dana discusses how surrender, often misunderstood as weakness, is actually a pathway to greater inner strength and more authentic leadership. She highlights how healthy trust dynamics involve setting clear boundaries, understanding consent deeply, and creating psychological safety both in intimate and professional environments. In a society that often separates sexuality from professional life, Dana argues for a more integrated approach, where acknowledging our desires and emotional truths leads to stronger, more trustworthy relationships at work. She also touches on the dangers of leadership rooted in unhealed trauma and explains why leaders must first do their inner work to foster real trust with their teams. Through her story and coaching philosophy, Dana challenges listeners to rethink power, lust, surrender, and authenticity—not as opposites of professionalism, but as essential elements for genuine human connection and leadership.

As US-China relations strain under rising economic rivalry, political divergence, and competing global visions, trust has become more elusive and essential. In this episode, Yale scholar Feng Zhang explores how trust between these two superpowers has frayed—not only through policy missteps and trade tensions, but also through fundamentally different understandings of global order. From Confucian relational thinking to China’s Global Civilization Initiative, Zhang offers a rare, nuanced perspective on how trust might be rebuilt—even amid deep ideological divides and historical grievances. He reflects on missed diplomatic opportunities, the fading promise of cooperation post-Sunnylands, and whether China’s ambitions can ever align with Western expectations of global leadership.

Our guest today is Anat Admati, professor of Finance and Economics at Stanford Graduate School of Business and co-author of The Bankers’ New Clothes. In this episode, she takes a critical look at trust in powerful institutions—arguing that, when misplaced, trust can be not only naive but dangerous. Anat explains that much of the financial system operates on the illusion of oversight and accountability. While many believe that governments, regulators, and boards are safeguarding the public interest, the reality is often one of regulatory capture, corporate self-interest, and systemic opacity. She challenges listeners to rethink assumptions about “checks and balances” in modern capitalism. She also reflects on the role of academics and public intellectuals in holding power to account. While research often stays behind paywalls or within elite circles, Admati calls on scholars to engage more directly with public discourse—and describes the resistance they often face when challenging the status quo. The conversation covers trust, leadership, corporate governance, and the failures of financial reform. Anat argues that effective change requires more than technical fixes—it requires moral courage, transparency, and a willingness to challenge institutional convenience.

Our guest today is Joel Brockner, a professor at Columbia Business School. He discusses the crucial role of procedural fairness in building trust. He explains that trust isn’t just about delivering results—it’s also about how decisions are made. When people feel treated fairly, they are more likely to accept difficult outcomes, whether in the workplace or beyond. Joel highlights that leaders often assume they act fairly, but employees may perceive things differently. Research shows that workers who feel disrespected during layoffs are 17 times more likely to sue, and similar patterns exist in medical malpractice cases. He stresses that clear, respectful communication and follow-up are key to ensuring fairness is both real and perceived. The discussion also explores trust and control, noting that leaders who involve employees in decision-making and explain their reasoning gain more engagement. Joel warns that job insecurity and uncertainty make fairness even more important, as people become highly sensitive to how they are treated during tough times. With the rise of remote work and AI-driven decisions, fairness challenges are growing. Remote employees may feel disconnected, and algorithm-based decisions can seem opaque. Leaders must actively communicate, clarify processes, and ensure transparency to maintain trust in these evolving environments. Joel’s key takeaway: Fairness is an investment that prevents bigger problems later. Leaders who cut corners on transparency and respect may save time in the short term, but they risk distrust, resistance, and legal issues in the long run. His advice? “Pay a little now, or pay a lot later.”

Our guest today is Zeke Hernandez, author of "The Truth About Immigration”. He powerfully challenges the myths and fears surrounding immigration, revealing the human stories and everyday realities behind the headlines. He argues that immigrants are often unfairly blamed for societal issues like crime, unemployment, and housing shortages, not because of facts but because of political narratives and media distortions that fuel fear. Hernandez explains that people often distrust immigrants simply because they don’t know them. Those who have little or no personal contact are more likely to believe stereotypes, while those who live and work alongside immigrants see them as neighbors, colleagues, and friends. They see them raising children, working hard, and contributing to their communities. Hernandez passionately illustrates how immigrants are woven into the fabric of our daily lives. He paints a vivid picture, asking listeners to think about their day—from breakfast to bedtime. The foods on our tables, the music that moves us, and the products we buy are all enriched by immigrant contributions. If we removed foods introduced by immigrants, more than half of our grocery carts would be empty. The music that makes us dance, cry, and celebrate—whether salsa, rock, or hip-hop—owes its vibrancy to immigrant cultures. Immigrants shape our tastes, our sounds, and our experiences, making life richer and more colorful. Challenging the notion that immigrants compete with native-born workers, Hernandez reveals the opposite: they complement the workforce, making economies stronger and more innovative. He shares compelling evidence that immigrants are more likely to start businesses, create new jobs, and drive technological advances. They pay more in taxes than they receive in public services, giving back to the very communities that sometimes fear them. Hernandez argues that the debate on immigration shouldn’t be about insiders versus outsiders but about seeing immigrants for who they truly are—people who bring hope, hard work, and heart to our societies. He criticizes the common narrative that frames immigrants as victims needing help, pointing out that this approach is politically ineffective and patronizing. Instead, he urges us to see immigration through a new lens—not as charity or humanitarian aid but as an economic opportunity that benefits everyone. He emphasizes that immigrants bring investment, innovation, and energy, helping economies grow and societies thrive. By recognizing the value immigrants add, we move beyond a narrative of pity or fear and toward one of shared prosperity. He shares the personal story of an undocumented barber in Philadelphia—an incredibly talented man with $200,000 saved to start his own business but unable to do so because of his legal status. This isn’t just about one man’s dream; it’s about the potential we lose when we reduce immigrants to stereotypes or political pawns. It’s about the jobs not created, the taxes not paid, and the communities not enriched because of restrictive immigration policies. Through his passionate words and powerful stories, Hernandez invites us to rethink the way we see immigration—not as a problem to be solved but as an opportunity to be embraced.  

In this episode, Dominika Latusek from Kozminski University in Warsaw, Poland, talks about trust in business partnerships and why it doesn’t always work the way we expect. While trust can help buyers and suppliers work well together, it doesn’t always match reality. Sometimes companies keep trusting a partner even when performance is poor, and other times, they remain sceptical despite good results. She explains that trust between companies is based on two things: competence (can they do the job?) and goodwill (do they have good intentions?). To help businesses understand whether their trust in a partner is justified, she developed a tool that measures trust, perceived performance, and satisfaction. This tool helps companies spot warning signs before problems arise. Dominika also warns that long-term partnerships can lead to complacency, where companies stick with familiar partners instead of looking for better opportunities. She discusses “hostage arrangements,” like shared investments, that make it costly for businesses to break trust. But if trust only exists because of financial ties, is it really trust? This episode challenges common ideas about trust in business and highlights why companies should regularly check whether their partnerships are truly working in their favor.